Observing that both models are biased by anthropomorphism, the authors attempt to clarify the issues surrounding “high strangeness” observations by distinguishing six layers of information that can be derived from UAP events, namely 

(1) physical manifestations;

(2) anti-physical effects; 

(3) psychological factors; 

(4) physiological factors;

(5) psychic effects;

(6) cultural effects. In a further step they propose a framework for scientific analysis of unidentified aerial phenomena that takes into account the incommensurability problem.

"I am being driven, somewhat reluctantly to the feeling that many UFOs are caused by our own psychic energy somehow interacting with matter" - J. Allen Hynek Courtesy of the Henry McKay UFO Archives, this historical document is a letter from Dr. J. Allen Hynek to Iris Owen, dated August 24, 1977. It is significant to not only the UFO research community, but also to the ghost research community as it addresses the commonality between both phenomenon. Dr Hynek worked on the U.S. Air Force's UFO Project Bluebook and Iris along with her husband Dr George Owen developed the Philip experiments in Toronto. Our thanks to Michelle Mckay for allowing us to reproduce this significant and historical document to both UFOlogy and Parapsychology.

Jacques Vallée on Remote Viewing and human Consciousness -  Conference IRVA 2007

A legendary computer scientist, trained astrophysicist, and highly respected investigator of unidentified aerial phenomena, Dr. Jacques Vallee unveils some of the computer-science roots of remote viewing. He tells of his role of consultant and advisor to SRI-International's human consciousness program, and his interactions with Hal Puthoff, Russell Targ, and particularly Ingo Swann through a long portion of the program's development. Along the way, he delves into some of the perplexities he sees as a scientist about the nature of time. Dr. Vallee also reveals a surprising trend he and his colleagues observed as they created Arpanet, the forerunner of the Internet. 

As computer scientists tried to cope with the relatively primitive computer communications processes then available, they noticed that what could only be described as psychic augmentation to the communications was filtering in to help the process along. Vallee also includes a fascinating description of a combined telepathic/remote viewing experiment done with Ingo Swann, Richard Bach (author of Bridge Across Forever and many other books), and others. During the question and answer period, Dr. Vallee answers questions about computers and consciousness, the watershed Comida UFO report, and certain other controversial UFO topics.

Jacques Vallee was born in France, where he received a B.S. in mathematics at the Sorbonne and an M.S. in astrophysics at Lille University. He later received his Ph.D. in computer science and artificial intelligence from Northwestern University. Dr. Vallee was a senior researcher at SRI at the time the remote viewing program was being initiated in 1971. Jacques became informally associated with the program and is credited by Ingo Swann for suggesting the approach (based on information addressing) that led to the coordinate remote viewing protocol. A decade later, Dr. Vallee was brought back to SRI as a consultant and went through formal training with Ingo Swann.

Apart from his work with information technology and finance, Jacques has had a long-term private interest in astronomy, in writing fiction and in the frontiers of research, notably unidentified aerial phenomena. He serves as a general partner of a Silicon Valley group that invests in North America and Europe, primarily in high-technology, and on the scientific advisory board of Bigelow Aerospace.

Noted scientist-UFO researcher proposes a startling theory about what UFOs may be, how they behave and what we can do about them

Interview by Jerome Clark

Dr. Jacques Vallee, a French-American computer specialist with a background in astrophysics, once served as consultant to NASA's Mars Map project.

Jacques Vallee is one of ufology's major figures - and also its most original thinker.

Terrence McKenna, John Mack, Budd Hopkins on the Alien, UFO, Abduction phenomenon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJQ0MZ6Q9ZA

Jacques Vallee And The UFO Phenomenon (radio interview 1 hr 41 mins) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ZikPIRTfU

Vallee, who holds a master's degree in astrophysics and a Ph.D. in computer science from Northwestern University, was an early scientific proponent of the theory that UFOs are extraterrestrial spaceships. His first book, Anatomy of a Phenomenon (Henry Regnery, 1965), argued eloquently that "through UFO activity … the contours of an amazingly complex intelligent life beyond the earth can already be discerned." In Challenge to Science - The UFO Enigma (Regnery, 1966) he and Janine Vallee (who is a psychologist by training, with a master's degree from the University of Paris) urged the scientific community to consider the UFO evidence in this light.

But by 1969, when he published Passport to Magonia (Regnery), Vallee's assessment of the UFO phenomenon had undergone a significant shift. Much to the consternation of the "scientific ufologists" who had seen him as one of their champions, Vallee now seemed to be backing away from the extraterrestrial hypotheses and advancing the radical view that UFOs are paranormal in nature and a modern space age manifestation of a phenomenon which assumes different guises in different historical contexts.

" When the underlying archetypes are extracted," he wrote, "the saucer myth is seen to coincide to a remarkable degree with the fairy-faith of Celtic countries … religious miracles… and the widespread belief among all peoples concerning entities whose physical and psychological descriptions place them in the same category as the present-day ufonauts."

In The Invisible College (E.P. Dutton, 1975) Vallee posits the idea of a "control system." UFOs and related phenomena are "the means through which man's concepts are being rearranged." Their ultimate source may be unknowable, at least at this stage of human development; what we do know, according to Vallee, is that they are presenting us with continually recurring "absurd" messages and appearances which defy rational analysis but which nonetheless address human beings on the level of myth and imagination.

"When I speak of a control system for planet earth," he says, " I do not want my words to be misunderstood: I do not mean that some higher order of beings has locked us inside the constraints of a space-bound jail, closely monitored by psychic entities we might call angels or demons. I do not propose to redefine God. What I do mean is that mythology rules at a level of our social reality over which normal political and intellectual action has no power…."

Vallee is also coauthor, with J. Allen Hynek, of The Edge of Reality (Regnery, 1975). A resident of the San Francisco area, he is completing a book which further develops his theories concerning UFO phenomena.

We have talked together at some length about his beliefs. The following interview is a report of these conversations:

Clark: Since the great autumn 1973 sighting wave public attitudes about the UFO phenomenon seem to have changed dramatically, to the extent that society may be entering a pivotal period in its perception of the problem. What do you think will happen now?

Vallee: First, I expect increased government and scientific attention to it. More researchers will be pursuing the physical evidence aspects, conducting much more sophisticated investigations of traces left at landing sites and so on. The people moving into the field now are good physicists and good engineers who know what they are doing and who are convinced it is time for them to get involved.

At the same time I expect that public opinion will change also. Initially it probably will move strongly toward the extraterrestrial explanation. Most people see only two ways to look at the problem - either it's all nonsense or we're being visited from outer space. The current spate of movies, books and magazine articles is going to push people toward the extraterrestrial hypothesis. After that I expect a backlash effect may push them in the other direction. I don't know where that's going to leave scientists who want to do research.

Clark: You say that scientists are entering ufology in search of physical evidence. But is there physical evidence? And if there is, are they going to find it? What happens if they don't?

Vallee: If I were speaking for them I would say, "Jerry, it's premature to ask those questions." One doesn't know the answers until one really looks - and so far nobody has looked very seriously. So far the people who have looked have been military types searching for enemy craft or direct threats to national security. Or they've been superficial investigators, dedicated civilians with good training but limited time and limited resources.

But you're asking me what I think. I think there are physical data. They are very, very interesting. They may contain a message. My inclination is to look at the message both in a physical sense and in a symbolic sense, but that's because I'm an information scientist and not a physical scientist. I look for the meaning behind the object.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Recently Paul Cerny investigated a case in northern California in which two older persons saw a UFO take off. Afterwards they saw a sort of ring on the ground. Within the ring they found some molten metal and a pile of sand.

Obviously here is physical evidence. Two tangible things - the molten metal, which turned out to be brass, and the sand. I took some of the latter to a geologist friend who knows about sand. He said it was highly unusual because it did not contain quartz and it was not stream sand or beach sand or residue from mining or anything else. It seemed to be artificial sand created from grinding together stones of different origin.

Well, to a physicist that may not mean too much. It's an indication of something that turns out to be absurd. We can put it alongside other cases of physical traces and then we may start looking for patterns which might lead us to a better understanding of the modus operandi of whoever's doing all this.

In that sense, yes, there is physical evidence. But if you mean physical evidence in the sense that we're going to discover somebody's propulsion system from it, I would have to say I don't expect that to happen.

Clark: Can we infer from the existence of physical evidence, then, that there is a physical cause?

Vallee: If the UFO phenomenon had no physical cause at all, there would be no way for us to perceive it because human beings are physical entities. So it has to make an impression on our senses somehow. For that to take place, it has to be physical at some time.

Clark: So in other words there is such a thing as a solid, three-dimensional flying saucer.

Vallee: No, I didn't say that. That may or may not be true. I don't think there is such a thing as the flying saucer phenomenon. I think it has three components and we have to deal with them in different ways.

First, there is a physical object. That may be a flying saucer or it may be a projection or it may be something entirely different. All we know about it is that it represents a tremendous quantity of electromagnetic energy in a small volume. I say that based upon the evidence gathered from traces, from electromagnetic and radar detection and from perturbations of the electromagnetic fields such as Dr. Claude Poher, the French space scientist, has recorded.

Second, there's the phenomenon the witnesses perceive. What they tell us is that they've seen a flying saucer. Now they may have seen that or they may have seen an image of a flying saucer or they may have hallucinated it under the influence of microwave radiation, or any of a number of things may have happened. The fact is that the witnesses were exposed to an event and as a result they experienced a highly complex alteration of perception which caused them to describe the object or objects that figure in their testimony.

Beyond there - the physical phenomenon and the perception phenomenon - we have the third component, the social phenomenon. That's what happens when the reports are submitted to society and enter the cultural arena. That's the part which I find most interesting.

Clark: Before we go into that, let's clarify your views on the nature of the physical aspect. When I asked you if there was such a thing as a solid, three-dimensional flying saucer, I was thinking in these terms: Let's suppose that somebody says he has seen a UFO, the bottom part of which was flat and circular. He says he saw the object come down, settle on the soil and then fly off again, leaving a flat circular impression. Doesn't that clearly suggest the presence - at least for the duration of the sighting - of a solid object whose physical structure was more or less as the witness perceived it?

Vallee: Not necessarily. We have evidence that the phenomenon has the ability to create a distortion of the sense of reality or to substitute artificial sensations for the real ones. Look at some of the more bizarre close encounter cases - for example the incident from South America in which one man believed he had been abducted by a UFO while his companion thought he had boarded a bus which had suddenly appeared on the road behind then.

It is conceivable that there is one phenomenon which is visual and another which creates the physical traces. What I'm saying is that a strange kind of deception may be involved.

Clark: In other words the physical traces are placed there as ostensible confirmation of what the senses perceived?

Vallee: Yes. It's comparable perhaps to the strategic deception operations of the British during World War II to fool the Germans. They created artificial tank tracks in the desert and in other ways simulated the passage of large armored divisions. They even caused dust storms to perpetuate the illusion, which the Germans found very convincing indeed.

In the UFO context that might explain cases such as the one in California I mentioned earlier, in which the "physical evidence" left in the wake of the UFO appearance really seemed to have no clear, unambiguous connection with the perceived "object."

Clark: What do you think happens during the "UFO experience?"

Vallee: We don't know. There is no question that something happens. It seems as if an external force takes control of people. In the close encounters people may lose their ability to move or to speak; in the abduction cases, which are the most extreme example, they gradually enter into a series of experiences during which they lose control of all their senses. Do they experience what they think they experience? Suppose you, an outside observer, had been there. What would you have seen?

Clark: I can think of several cases which might suggest I would have seen the same thing they saw. To cite an example, one of the famous Venezuelan humanoid encounters of late 1954 was independently observed by a doctor some distance from the scene.

Vallee: Yes, I'm familiar with that incident and similar ones. But that doesn't alter my point. The doctor may have experienced the object as "real" but we don't know what the nature of that reality is.

We know there are objects that contain a lot of energy in a small space. What do we know about what happens to the human brain when it's exposed to a great deal of energy? We know very little about that. We don't know much about the effects of electromagnetic or microwave radiation on the brain, nor about the effects of pulsating colored lights on the brain. The research into that is just beginning.

What we do know is that you can make people hallucinate using either lights or microwave or electromagnetic energy. You can also make them pass out; you can cause them to behave strangely, put them into shock, make them hear voices or even kill them.

Clark: Is there any way to penetrate to the reality of the experience, for example through hypnotic regression?

Vallee: I'm not sure that what we learn under hypnotic regression is useful. Hypnosis is really a delicate technique and some of the people in our field who are using it are doing more harm than good. If the hypnotist doesn't have medical training - and most of these people have no medical training - the results may be disastrous for the witness. But if the hypnotist does have medical training and doesn't have any knowledge of the subject, he may ask the wrong questions. I think that may have happened in the famous case of Betty and Barney Hill. The hypnotist was extremely skilled but was not especially interested in UFOs and didn't know the background of the problem.

Clark: What can we do, then?

Vallee: I'm not saying that hypnosis has no role to play in UFO investigation, nor that it can't be helpful under certain circumstances when percipients are blocking from their memories something they have seen or experienced.

The thing I really want to emphasize is that the investigator's first responsibility is to the witness and not to the UFO phenomenon. The average witness is in shock because he's had a very traumatic experience; what he's seen is going to change his life. Your intervention, the very fact that you're talking with him about it, is also going to have an effect on him. Now he may say to you, "I need help to understand what I saw," but in fact he needs more immediate help as a human being who is deeply troubled by a very disturbing experience.

Unfortunately this element has been neglected. The more UFO investigators try to appear "professional," the more they ignore that human aspect - and by extension their own ethical obligations. I want to convince my friends in UFO research that whenever we have a choice between obtaining interesting UFO data and taking chances with the life of a human being, we should forget the UFO data.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are alternatives to the use of hypnosis. These involve putting the percipient into a state of relaxed revery or free association. There are several techniques that are equally as effective as hypnosis in bringing out the hidden details but are must less harmful. Investigators really haven't made use of these yet.

Clark: What do you think of the abduction cases?

Vallee: Again, I'm interested mainly in their symbolic contents.

Let me explain what I mean. We live in a society that is oriented toward technology, so when we see something unusual in the sky we think of it in physical terms. How is it manufactured? What makes it tick? What is its propulsion system? We tend to assume that the physical phenomenon is its most important aspect and that everything else is just a side effect and much less important.

But perhaps we're facing something which is basically a social technology. Perhaps the most important effects from the UFO technology are the social ones and not the physical ones. In other words the physical reality may serve only as a kind of triggering device to provide images for the witness to report. These perceptions are manipulated to create certain kinds of social effects.

If that's true, then the abduction cases are quite revealing. I am not concerned with how many switches there were on the control panel or whether the percipient felt hot or cold when he was inside the flying saucer. Those questions may be totally irrelevant because maybe that person never actually went inside the object.

But the report is extremely important for its symbolic content. It can help us understand what kinds of images are coming through. One might illustrate the difference in this way:

An engineer observing a computer would want to look at the back and open up the boxes. He would want to take a probe and examine the different parts of the computer. But there is another way of looking at it; the way of the programmer, who wants to sit in front of the computer and analyze what it does, not how it does it. That's my approach. I want to ask it questions and see what answers I get. I want to interact with it as an information entity.

In the case of the abductions I think we're dealing with the information aspect. I came to that conclusion because abduction cases, in close encounter cases in general, what the witness is saying is absurd.

Clark: What do you mean?

Vallee: I don't mean simply to imply that the account is silly. I mean it has absurdity as a semantic construction. If you're trying to express something which is beyond the comprehension of a subject, you have to do it through statements that appear contradictory or seem absurd. For example, in Zen Buddhism the seeker must deal with such concepts as "the sound of one hand clapping" - an apparently preposterous notion which is designed to break down ordinary ways of thinking. The occurrences of similar "absurd" messages in UFO cases brought me to the idea that maybe we're dealing with a sort of control system that is subtly manipulating human consciousness.

Clark: But how do you prove that one is operating in a UFO context?

Vallee: I've always been unhappy with the argument between those who believe UFOs are nonsense and those who believe they are extraterrestrial visitors. I don't think I belong in either camp. I've tried to place myself between those two extremes because there's no proof that either proposition is correct. I've come up with the control system concept because it is an idea which can be tested. In that sense it's much closer to a scientific hypotheses than the others. It may turn out that there is a control system which is operated by extraterrestrials. But that's only one possibility.

There are different kinds of control systems - open ones and closed ones - and there are tests you can apply to them to find out what kind of control system you're inside. That leads to a number of experiments you can do with the UFO phenomenon, whereas the other interpretations don't lead you to anything. If you're convinced that UFOs are extraterrestrial, then about the only thing you can do is to climb to a hilltop with a flashlight and send a message in Morse code. People have tried that, I know, but it doesn't seem to work very will!

The control system concept can be tested by a small group of people - you don't need a large organization or a lot of equipment - and you can start thinking about active intervention in the phenomenon.

Clark: How could I prove to my satisfaction that there is a control system in operations?

Vallee: If you think you're inside a control system, the first thing you have to look for is what is being controlled and try to change it to see what happens. My friend Bill Powers proposes the following analogy:

Suppose you're walking through the desert and you see a stone that looks as though it was painted white. A thousand yards later you see another stone of similar appearance. You stop and consider the matter. Either you can forget it or - if you're like me - you can pick up the stone and move it a few feet. If suddenly a bearded character steps out from behind a rock and demands to know why you moved his marker, then you know you've found a control system.

My point is that you can't be sure until you do something. Then you realize that what you were seeing, the thing that looked absurd and incongruous, was really a marker for a boundary that was invisible to everybody else until you discovered it because you looked for a pattern. I think that's exactly what we have to do with UFOs. We have to do something that will cause them to react. And I don't mean building landing strips in the desert and waiting out there to welcome the space brothers.

Clark: But what do you mean?

Vallee: I hesitate to be too specific. I'm speaking, as I'm sure you understand, of the attempted manipulation of UFO manifestations. It's a pretty tall order. We're assuming that there is a feedback mechanism involved in the operations of the control system; if you change the information that's carried back to that system, you might be able to infiltrate it through its own feedback.

Clark: How does one go about investigating UFOs, taking into consideration the possible existence of a control system?

Vallee: You should work outside any organized UFO group. Also you must be very careful about the types of instruments you use for your analysis. For example, I have become increasingly skeptical of the use of computers in UFO research. We're losing a great many data because of a certain situation that is developing: The field researcher will spend a lot of time and money investigating a case. Typically he will write it up in an excellent 10-to-20-page report; then he'll send it to his superiors in the organization, assuming that they are going to put it on the computer and that in this way it's going to add to some great body of knowledge.

But it doesn't. Investigators should understand that their reports go absolutely nowhere. They end up in a drawer somewhere, they are never published, and they're quickly forgotten. All that's left in the computer is a bunch of codes and letters and numbers on magnetic tape somewhere and that's the end of that.

For another thing you don't want to go around chasing every UFO that's reported. If a sighting gets a lot of publicity, you should stay the hell away from it. Instead you should go after cases that you select yourself, ones that have received very little publicity and you've heard about through personal channels. There are plenty of those and they are surprisingly rich in content. You should take your time investigating them. Get involved with the people as human beings. And then you have to become part of the scene, getting as close as you can to what's happening especially if it continues to happen.

Clark: Are you suggesting that the investigator should attempt to experience the phenomenon himself?

Vallee: Yes, I think that's sound scientific practice.

Clark: But isn't that rather dangerous - in the sense that there's a real risk the investigator, even if he is emotionally stable and intellectually sophisticated, might be overwhelmed by the experiences involved?

Vallee: Yes, there are dangers. Witness what happened to Morris Jessup or to Jim McDonald. But I think that now we're more aware of what the dangers are. Once you realize the phenomenon may be deliberately misleading, then you can use certain safeguards. I'm not saying that safeguards are always going to work. There is an element of danger you really can't avoid. There's no way to do that kind of study just by reading books.

It's a little bit like the study of volcanoes. You can learn a lot about them by watching them from a distance but you certainly learn a lot more when you can be right there - even if it's somewhat risky.

Basic Patterns in UFO Observations (AiAA, with Dr. Claude Poher, 1975)

Classification System for Anomalies (English version, 1990)

Classification System for Anomalies (French Version, 1990)

A Six-Layer Model (English version, with Dr. Eric Davis, 2003)

A Six-Layer Model (French version, 2003)

Physical Analyses: Material Samples (1998)

Optical Power Output in Selected UFO Observations(1998)

Are UFOs Related to Local Sidereal Time? (2007)

Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Theory (1990)

Return to Trans-en-Provence (1990)

On the Probability of Extraterrestrials (1965)

The Dynamics of Long-Term Growth (Co-Author w. Dr. Meyer, 1975)

An interview with UFO researcher, and author, Grant Cameron. During the interview Cameron explains how his research led him to uncover the connection between ESP, telepathy and the UFO phenomena

Alex Tsakiris: One of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string and follow it as far as we can. That’s led me to you because when you look at human consciousness and you start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-body experiences, and other altered states of consciousness it eventually leads to this UFO thing, and the numerous reports of mind control and telepathy associated with it. So when I heard you say government insiders who really know about the UFO have told you that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of consciousness I was intrigued.  Tell me how you came to this conclusion.

Grant Cameron: …We tracked this guy down and he turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker, who was former President of Penn State University. For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible, unbelievable background of military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this. So when we go to him, we’re interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about the mind and consciousness; we couldn’t care less about that, no connection whatsoever. We’re talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the whole thing, the MJ-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12. “Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the UFO thing?” And suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990 he suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all this, and he suddenly says, “How good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And Walker says, “Unless you know about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

…Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the guy who ran “Skunk Works”, where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the Stealth bomber, they were all developed by what was called Skunk Works. Ben Rich ran it and he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology? He’s giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of engineers and he’s talking and he says, “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his lecture, he finishes the lecture, he’s walking out, and one of the engineers who was interested in UFOs runs after him. He asks, “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” And Ben Rich turns around and says to him, “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?”

Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Grant Cameron to Skeptiko. Grant is a highly-regarded UFO researcher who’s made some fascinating connections between what we know about the UFO phenomena and the kind of extended human consciousness we talk so much about here on Skeptiko. Grant is in the process of publishing two new books and regularly blogs at www.presidentialufo.com. Welcome, Grant, thanks for joining us.

Grant Cameron: Thanks, Alex, for having me on.

Alex Tsakiris: So Grant, one of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string and follow it as far as we can. That’s what I think led me to you because when you look at human consciousness and you start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-body experiences, and all the altered states of consciousness that serious researchers like Rick Strassman has looked into with his DMT research. Or even Terence McKenna used to talk about.

When you try to take that in whole, and then you keep pulling at it, that string eventually leads you to bumping up against this UFO thing and the numerous reports of mind control and really consciousness-bending kinds of ideas that you run into. So when I heard on an interview and I heard you saying that the government insiders who really know about the UFO KIP thing all say that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of human consciousness.

Well, I guess that really got me intrigued and that’s what I was hoping we would talk about today. So let me start with this. I want to jump right to the end and tell me how you came to this conclusion about consciousness being fundamental to understanding the UFO phenomena.

Grant Cameron: Okay, maybe I should first set up a little bit of my background. What happened was I got involved in 1975, just at the end of the Vietnam War right along the Canadian/U.S. border where the U.S. have all their Minuteman III missile silos, that’s where we had a bunch of sightings. Now before then I’d never thought about UFOs. I had no interest whatsoever.

But I did have an interest in stuff like Edgar Cayce, reincarnation research. I was very interested in the work of Dr. Michael Newton. I was very much interested in near-death and consciousness and stuff. But UFOs I had no interest whatsoever.

So I started in 1975 and I had these sightings and really the consciousness thing didn’t come up for like 35 years. It wasn’t until I was at a conference last year in Phoenix, Arizona and I’d filed a lot of UFO material. It started with sightings, realized that sightings really wasn’t getting us anywhere, and got into the government aspect of the documents and somebody must know about this sort of stuff. So for 35 or 37 years I collected material and documents and all this sort of stuff…

Alex Tsakiris: Now, Grant, let me interject here. You’re kind of glossing over the extent of your research which I think is phenomenal. We can talk about the whole field of UFO research and how an independent UFO researcher like you has the guts and determination to do this, but you’re a guy who’s filed how many Freedom of Information requests? And how many have you filed and how many pages of documents are we talking about that you’ve gathered in your research?

Grant Cameron: Oh my goodness. I’ve got over 100 Freedom of Information requests with the Clinton Library. What you do is you basically go to different departments and what I’d done was I tried to find who had the answer. I figured well, the President of the United States is supposedly the most powerful man in the world. He must know.

So I would file with various presidential libraries looking for their documents on UFOs. And also on remote viewing psychic phenomena, this sort of stuff, trying to find out what the President knows about these very sort of intricate, involved parts of reality and figuring at his level he must have a better idea than you and I in the public would know.

So Clinton was very interested in consciousness and UFOs. Hillary was very much into—you know she got caught with this channeling thing with this Jean Houston in New York City, this big scandal where she was talking to Gandhi and Eleanor Roosevelt. So they were really interested and I filed a lot of Freedom of Information requests there and I basically traveled to all the different presidential libraries looking for these documents. It really wasn’t that successful except for the Clintons.

In terms of documents I probably have oh, maybe 10,000 pages of material. A lot of it is not the hard answers sort of stuff but stuff that sort of relates. So I’ve collected an awful lot of material just trying to put it together and there really wasn’t much of an answer.

I’ve had these sort of moments of insight. One was when I had my first UFO sighting in 1975 which it’s sort of just a hit you and it’s like whoa. I didn’t believe this existed. The other one was when I saw Dr. Michael Newton talking about Life Between Lives. He lectured in about 1990 in Laughlin, Nevada. I saw that lecture and that just changed my life. The third one was when we got into this consciousness thing. This was last year in Phoenix where all the UFO lecturers—and this conference goes on for about a week and it’s lecture after lecture for a whole week.

I listened to all these different lectures and there seemed to be this thing where various people who were talking were talking about consciousness. It wasn’t the main part of their lecture but it was just a sub-topic in the lecture. For example, Dr. Steven Greer who did the disclosure news conference trying to expose all the high-level government witnesses, he talked about this consciousness thing, that this is at the basis of the UFO interaction with the Earth. David Sereda and all the various abduction researchers who would talk about this mental telepathy thing that was going between the abductees and the aliens. Nothing happened by word of mouth. It was all telepathy.

So this is sort of a sub-topic. But it wasn’t until the last lecture, and the last lecture was given by Colin Andrews. Colin Andrews is, for people who know the crop circles, the famous crop circles in England, Colin Andrews is the key researcher. He started in 1982. He is the top researcher on crop circles and he gave this lecture which was called “Circles of Consciousness” or something like that.

It was one of these mind-altering things that when I heard his lecture talking about the fact that the aliens were making crop circles but they were also controlling the people who were hoaxing crop circles. That was his whole lecture, that 80% of the crop circles are hoaxed but that the people that he talked to who are hoaxing the crop circles were talking about some sort of interaction, some sort of force that was getting them to make certain types of circles.

So his thing was that the aliens control the whole thing, the real circles and the hoax circles. It was this whole idea that the aliens were sort of in control of what is going on. They’re part of the cover-up and they’re part of this interaction with the human race that they’re leading us along. I got this instant insight for 35, 37 years of research where suddenly everything fit together. All these stories that I could relate to you, these little things that I’ve known for years and years and years. Everything suddenly fit together.

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, hold on because there’s a lot going on here. I want to back up for a minute and say that this realization that you had that these pieces fit together, I think is kind of interesting. I share your perspective on it. From the beginning, these accounts have always had this element to them. This extended consciousness. We had Stan Friedman on this show a while ago and this show that we’re doing today, Grant, will be only the second show that we’ve ever done that touches on UFOs.

Again, our approach to it is to look at the connection between consciousness but Stan Friedman, of course you know, did some pretty extensive work on the Betty and Barney Hill abduction case in 1950. He’s not that interested in consciousness so he immediately brought to the table well, yeah, this guy pulls off the road, has no reason or explanation for why he’s done it, and then is communicating telepathically. So you have both the mind control—why would this guy who’s really kind of fastidious and would never get in the dust and the dirt pull off on this gravel road and get outside of the car? And then how did he know this stuff without communicating?

So from back in the ‘50s there are these reports. I just want to emphasize what you brought up, that this has been hanging around there for a long time and no one’s really put the pieces together. Now that I’ve interrupted you I want to get you back on track.

Grant Cameron: Okay, let me clarify that compared to there’s a part of the UFO community that believes very deeply in the abduction stuff. If you listen to the two top researchers, who were David Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, they talk about the fact that after 1975 we knew everything we knew about UFOs in terms of sightings. You had to get inside the craft to know what was going on. And they would talk about this interaction between abductees and the aliens but they made the connection that other than that, all the people who have talked to the aliens, it’s all hoaxes.

Like back to the 1950’s. The Betty and Barney Hill thing did not start until 1962 when they started to make this thing public. Before then, for example, when they were first abducted they went to NICAP, which was the biggest UFO group in the world at the time. It was headed by Major Kehoe and Major Kehoe said, “This is nonsense. Little aliens do not abduct people on the roads.” He basically would not touch this thing with a 10-foot pole. The same as J. Allen Hynek who was probably the most prominent UFO researcher in the world, the same thing. He said, “Stay away from abductions. It’s no good. Don’t go to abductions.” And a lot of people avoided that sort of interaction thing.

One of the things that people left out, when you get Hopkins and people like this who are talking about the abduction thing, they say everything else is nonsense. I started back with the work of Wilbert Smith who ran the Canadian government UFO program. The Canadian government investigated this thing from 1950 to 1954 and there’s a Top Secret memo. It’s a legitimate Top Secret memo. It was declassified by the Canadian government and in that memo, Wilbert Smith who is running the Canadian government UFO program writes to the deputy minister of the Department of Transport, giving a report on UFOs. He said…

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me interject here because this is really an important memo for folks who are still on the skeptical side of the whole UFO thing. What I want you to do is talk about in real simple terms who Wilbert Smith is, which you just did, and how did Wilbert Smith come to write this memo? Why was he down in D.C. and why should we believe what’s in the memo? And along the way, of course, you have to tell us what’s in this memo.

Grant Cameron: Okay, he was called a senior radio engineer and after the program was shut down and he was actually promoted to the head of communications. He worked at Shirley’s Bay which is outside of Ottawa, the Canadian capital, and basically it’s the NSA of Canada. He ran Radio Ottawa which is trying to pick off Russian communications. He was in charge of all the radio frequencies, AM/FM radio frequencies. So when FM radio came in in the late ‘50s, he would negotiate with the Americans on radio frequencies along the border. “You get this frequency; we get this frequency.”

But he also controlled the military frequencies and the Intelligence frequencies and handing out radio frequencies to these people. He was given the job to research the Flying Saucer thing. He was very interested. He said that he was down at a conference in Washington, D.C. and a couple of famous UFO books had come out. He started to ask questions and he said he basically got these confirmations. So he writes back to the Canadian government and he’s reporting on what he learned at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C…

Alex Tsakiris: As part of his job. This is what he’s supposed to be doing. It’s also his passion and his interest but this is a real guy in Canadian security in the U.S., in D.C., and asking around, “Hey, what about this UFO stuff?”

Grant Cameron: Yeah. And he’s going through the military attaché which was attached to the Research and Development Board in the United States. The Canadian military liaison guy was giving him a lot of this information and the Research and Development Board in the United States was in charge of the hydrogen bomb, all the weapon research. This was the key sort of research and development aspect of the American military.

So he’s getting this material and he reports back the basic things that UFO people have always, for 30 years, have talked about this UFO thing. He was told Flying Saucers exist. The most highly classified subject in the United States, rated two points higher than the hydrogen bomb. This was written in December of 1950, two years before the first hydrogen bomb was detonated. So this is before the hydrogen bomb and he’s saying this is a higher classification than the hydrogen bomb. Then he says that there’s a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush, who was the scientific advisor to Roosevelt during WWII…

Alex Tsakiris: The go-to guy, Vannevar Bush. He’s the go-to guy for everything, right, at the highest level? So atom bomb, nuclear…

Grant Cameron: Everything. All your atomic bomb, your jet engine, proximity fuse, every major development during WWII, the scientific aspect was headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush. So Smith is saying he’s given the job to figure out this Flying Saucer thing. So Smith is going back and saying “Flying Saucers are real.” He was told by American officials and he doesn’t say like some guy. He’s saying American officials are telling him this is for real and that if we have anything to exchange they’re willing to exchange. So for 30 years in the UFO community, I along with everybody else, quoted these four points. But the very next line in the document, everybody has left out…

Alex Tsakiris: Now hold on. Before you get to that next line let’s do a little cliffhanger here. Who was the intended audience for this memo? When does this memo become public? And what other evidence do we have that this was completely legitimate? What other confirmations do we have from other individuals that this did in fact happen the way that Smith said it did?

Grant Cameron: Okay, it was written in December 1950 to start with. It wasn’t declassified. Stan Friedman was actually one of the people who forced it to be pushed out, but it wasn’t fully declassified until 1978, I believe it was.

Alex Tsakiris: So almost 30 years later.

Grant Cameron: That this thing was declassified. And what happened was that when Smith was dying, he was dying of cancer of the lower bowel. He knew he was dying. He told his wife to get rid of the files. So the files were held by his oldest son and they were then moved to a researcher in Ottawa who knew that this memo existed because Smith had a copy in his personal files. So there was push from these researchers who knew what was in the files to get the Canadian government to declassify the documents.

So when they finally declassified the documents in 1978, this Top Secret document became public. Now, the way the government got out of it was they said he didn’t have the right to put Top Secret on it. They tried to find different ways to sort of invalidate the document but it is a valid document. It is in the Canadian research libraries and nobody denies that it wasn’t written and it wasn’t Top Secret. They’re just playing on the edges of whether they should have been Top Secret to start with. So this document is there. Smith writes it and he’s writing it to the Canadian government and…

Alex Tsakiris: And then we have confirmation from a U.S. official who says…

Grant Cameron: What happens is Stanton tracks down an interview that Smith does at the Canadian Embassy with a scientist, Dr. Robert Starbacher, who in the 1950s was a consultant to the U.S. military to the Research and Development Board. In 1983, after the document becomes public, Smith’s personal files become public and this interview, this handwritten interview with Dr. Starbacher, which gives part of the material—not all of the material in the Top Secret memo—but some of it. Stanton decides to see if this guy is still alive.

He finds the guy in Florida, Dr. Robert Starbacher, and he talks to Robert Starbacher.

“Did you give this interview to Wilbert Smith?”

He said, “Yeah, I recall giving this interview at the Canadian Embassy.”

He says, “What was the background?”

He says, “Well, one of the consultants in Washington at the Navy section, I was called into a series of meetings at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base where they had a crashed Flying Saucer and they were briefing a bunch of high-ranking scientists at the Research and Development Board.”

He didn’t have time to go—he was working the Canadian DO Line Project. But he started naming off these different people to Stanton who had gone. He named off Dr. Bush, of course. He named off Von Neumann who was the initiator of the computer, Dr. Von Braun. He named off a number of high-ranking scientists. Then he named off one scientist who was still alive. That’s kind of a long story. Dr. Eric Walker, who’s the former president of Penn State University.

We actually go to him and he confirms a lot of this stuff. So Starbacher does give confirmation for the fact that he did tell Smith it was the most highly classified subject in the United States, that Flying Saucers were real. All we know is we didn’t make them; we don’t know who made them. And so it sets the basis for the fact that Smith has not just connections with people in the United States but he has connections with the U.S. government.

In fact, his son confirmed to me as a rumored story that at the end of his life, his father had told him that yes, he had actually gotten access to the crashed Flying Saucer. He was shown a crashed Flying Saucer outside of Washington, D.C. and he did see the bodies. So Smith was at this very high level, classified area where there was actually interaction between the U.S. and the Canadian government.

Alex Tsakiris: And we should add that Wilbert Smith is someone that you have researched, a fellow Canadian that you have researched extensively. So you’ve spent several years collecting as many of his notes and documents and interviewing family members and friends. So it’s really been a major interest area of yours. Is that correct?

Grant Cameron: Yeah, yeah. And I have all his files which are four DVDs full. There was a lot of material.

Alex Tsakiris: But I want to come back and unravel and get back to the next line in the memo.

Grant Cameron: So in 1950 when Smith writes this memo to the Canadian government, describing what he’s been told by officials of the United States, he talks about the UFO stuff which everybody quotes. The very next line everybody leaves out. I left it out for years, too. He said, “I was further informed that U.S. authorities (and you’ve got to get that—U.S. authorities) are investigating along quite a number of lines which might possibly be related to the Saucers such as mental phenomena, and I gather they are not doing too well since they have indicated that if Canada is doing anything at all along the lines of geomagnetics they would welcome a discussion with suitably accredited Canadians.”

So he’s basically saying that they’ve got this connection with mental phenomena and if there’s anybody inside Canada who’s working on it, if you get cleared to talk on a classified level, we’re willing to talk to you because we’re trying to figure this thing out. And the key part of this whole thing is that in 1950, no matter what anybody in the UFO community wants to say, there was no discussion. None whatsoever in any literature that there was any interaction between the aliens and human beings.

The first interaction that’s publicly been made known was when the contactees, which were people who were talking to the Blonds, appeared in 1952. George Adamski. There was a bunch of them in 1952 that started to say, “We’re talking to aliens and we’re having meetings with them.” Smith writes this memo two years before. There is no discussion in UFO literature about an interaction, whether it’s talking to aliens or whether it’s telepathy.

So the important part of this whole thing is that in 1950, Smith is saying the American authorities already know that mental phenomena is part of this Flying Saucer phenomenon. The American government, who will say right up to today—Obama released a statement just a couple of months ago saying we have no evidence. We don’t have anything. And here’s Smith saying in a Top Secret memo, which is not discussion of whether this is a legitimate memo, in 1950 he’s already saying the American authorities know about the importance of mental phenomena associated with the Flying Saucers. So they’ve known the mental phenomena aspect right from Day One.

Alex Tsakiris: So, Grant, that’s fascinating. Now make the connection for us for MK-ULTRA. Tell people a little bit about what is MK-ULTRA, particularly because it happens up there in Canada.

Grant Cameron: Okay. The whole MK-ULTRA and all the related programs didn’t become public until the mid-1970s and it became public in a big scandal in the United States. Richard Helms had been involved. When it first became public, it had been sort of discovered immediately that the vast majority of the documents had been destroyed. This was basically the CIA working on mind control and on trying to work on this aspect of using the mind as a weapon of war, interrogating people, finding out what the Russians were doing, and all this sort of stuff.

When you look back at the thing, there’s this very significant meeting that takes place. Smith writes this memo in December of 1950 and one of the people that’s mentioned in the Top Secret memo is Dr. Oman Salant, who was the head of the military research board in Canada. Smith mentions him, that he’s briefing him as well. He’s writing it to the Department of Transport but the Defense Department, this Oman Salant, is involved.

Alex Tsakiris: I guess what I’m asking is don’t we have to look at that a little bit differently now that we understand the Smith memo and the next line that you talked about? Because I understand the Russian connection. We had Joe McMoneagle, who was Psychic Spy #001 at Stanford Research Institute as part of the Stargate Program. We interviewed him and we understand that there really was this perceived threat from the USSR.

But I think what you bring to the table here is that there’s this other element going on which is this UFO, the understanding that the UFO phenomena is related to these mental phenomena and I think that that plays into this, as well. Maybe I’m taking it too far. Would you agree with that?

Grant Cameron: Well, I don’t think we really get the UFO connection until later. In the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s I don’t think you get these pieces falling out like the MK-ULTRA, that whole scandal about the fact that the CIA was interested in the mind and the military aspects. It’s not until later when I get these other pieces that pop in that were always in my head, that sort of fit in where it says the UFO connection is really important.

The one was I mentioned Dr. Robert Starbacher and he was giving material to Wilbert Smith and when Stanton interviewed him he says, “Well, who was there? Was anybody alive? You’re mentioning all these guys who are dead.” He said, “There’s this one guy from Pennsylvania. He was real arrogant. He thought he knew everything. He attended all the meetings.” We tracked this guy down and he turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker, who was former President of Penn State University.

For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible, unbelievable background of military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this. So when we go to him, we’re interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about the mind; we couldn’t care less about that, no connection whatsoever.

We’re talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the whole thing, the MJ-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12. “Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the UFO thing?” And suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990, he’s interviewed for about eight years. I’m running this team of researchers around the world. I’m not talking to them. There are people who say, “I can get Walker to talk.”

“Okay, here’s his phone number.” And what we’d do is we’d take all the interviews that are done with him and we put them in a book. In 1990 in the middle of one of these interviews, he suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all this, and he suddenly says, “How good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And the other guy goes, “Well, not really.” It’s not of interest to him. And Walker says, “Unless you know about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

Because the question was about who’s running the group. What’s this MJ-12? How many people are in the group? How are these people operating? And he says, “Unless you know about ESP and how to use it, you would not be taken in by this MJ-12, this over-riding group that runs the UFO program. Only a few know about it.” We saw the interview and I put it in the book. We published the book in 1990. We’re about to re-publish the book. We put it in this book in 1991.

We never mentioned it in the book. We never brought up this mention of the fact that ESP was involved because it meant nothing to us. We were into the hardware and the bodies and all this sort of stuff. But he mentions this in 1990. Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the guy who ran Skunk Works, where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the Stealth bomber, they were all developed by what was called Skunk Works.

Ben Rich ran it and he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology? He’s giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of engineers and he’s talking and he says, “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his lecture, he finishes the lecture, he’s walking out, and one of the engineers who was interested in UFOs runs after him.

He says to Ben Rich, “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” And Ben Rich turns around and says to him, “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?” And the guy says, “Well, it means that all points in time and space are connected.” And Ben Rich turns around and he says, “That’s how they work.” And so here’s this top guy in U.S. military research who’s saying ESP, that’s how UFOs are propelled. So you get these connections years later that basically put this together.

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me layer something else on top of here that I’ve heard you say that changed the way that I think about this whole topic. I don’t know to what extent I fully, fully agree with you but that’s that you look at the UFO phenomena through a national security lens rather than as a scientific phenomenon. You insist that we look at it from a national security perspective. Tell us what you mean by that.

Grant Cameron: Well, let me clarify that. I wrote an article. It’s on my website. If you go to my website, on the right-hand side you’ll see Articles. I wrote an article I used to call “The 64 Reasons the Government Decided Not to Tell You the Truth.” The #1 reason is because it’s classified. This is military technology. If we can develop things that can fly around and nobody can capture them; if we can get this mind technology where we can go and grab the head of the Soviet Union or Russia and get into his head and give him messages like what’s happening with abductions and be back in Washington for lunch, that’s the kind of technology we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Let’s slow down and talk about that because we have to look at that for a minute. From a historical perspective, hey, that’s always been Priority #1 for any nation-state. Not only defense but offense. Whoever has the best weapon wins. And wins decisively. And their ideology and their whole culture advances. So this is really Priority #1 for any state. And we don’t have to look back too far in our history for evidence of that, right? So you can’t really make that point strong enough that this would be the top priority for any kind of new technology.

Grant Cameron: Yeah, it’s called “Military Lead-Time.” If you have a weapon and you suddenly decide to use it in a war, how long did it take you to develop it? If it takes you 60 years to develop it; you suddenly use it in a war, the other side can go to their leader and say, “Well, we’re going to fight this off and how long is it going to take?” “Well, about 60 years.” You know right now from the Iraq war, you can wipe out everybody else’s tanks in about two weeks. If you have a weapon, it’s over.

But there’s the other aspect of this whole cover-up thing, the 64 Reasons. One is the government is covering up for their reasons, military security and the fact that we’re paranoid and the Chinese and everybody in the world is trying to get us. We have to have this security and defense to protect the United States of America. But the other aspect is the aspect that connects with the mental phenomena and that is that the aliens are covering up as well.

The aliens could land on the White House lawn anytime they want; they could come onto the TV and announce themselves. They don’t and there is a cover-up by the aliens and that’s what I say, is that if you take a look at what’s happening and what I say the UFO community has missed is that in the UFO history, if you look it is like the aliens are turning the pages of a book.

There’s just one thing after another:

1947 to 1952, they do nothing except fly around and let people see them.

1952, they start to talk to people.

1961, they start abducting people.

1967, the cattle mutilation stuff starts. It does not start before 1967.

1982, the crop circles start. You get the aspect of people starting to remember various parts of abduction stuff that they didn’t remember in the ‘60s. They’re remembering different parts now.

It’s almost as if the aliens are just slowly turning the pages of a book and we are going through the way they want this thing to be unraveled. They could have told us in 1947 what was going on but they’re just slowly taking us along a path. That’s what is so important about this mental aspect thing is that if you take a look at the UFO history and you look at stuff, you see that the things that are happening now did not happen.

In 1975 it was a completely different world. The things that happened then don’t happen now. Ground trace, for example. You used to hear stories about aliens landing, ground traces. Little aliens walking around with little rods outside of their crafts. It does not happen anymore. There are no reports. There used to be hundreds a year. There’s none. It’s like the aliens are taking us down a path and this mental phenomena is part of what they’re doing.

There are some incredible stories inside the UFO community that show that they are doing this kind of stuff. For example, let me give you one. The Rendlesham Forest story is one of the top stories in UFO and that’s a story about a craft landing at a U.S. Air Force base in Britain and the people going out and touching the craft and seeing this stuff. All sorts of reports and stuff like this. James Penniston, who is one of the main people who was at the site, gets near the craft and he touches the craft.

He’s been interviewed and he talks about this message that he gets. It’s a message that comes in zeroes and ones and they later put the message together. It’s a 14-page long message of zeroes and ones. And he gets this message and it has this interpretation. I won’t get into the interpretation. But he’s interviewed about a year and a half ago and he was asked, “This 14-page message of zeroes and ones, you had to put it down, you got it instantly in your head when you touched the craft. Could you do it again?” And Penniston said, “Yes. I could write the message again.”

Fourteen pages of zeroes and ones and he can actually re-do that message. Not just an ordinary message from a mailing. Incredible message that is 32 years later, he can still remember the message, every dot, every zero in that message for 14 pages. That’s an incredible thing and that’s the aliens giving something to us that is not just a message. It’s an incredible message.

Or the story of the most famous abductee in UFO history now is Stan Romanek. A lot of people will say this guy’s a hoaxer. One of the things that he’s incredibly known for is getting these very complex formulas, mathematical formulas that he just suddenly gets up in the middle of the night and starts writing these formulas. Under hypnosis he writes these very complex formulas. One of the formulas was a formula by one of the top people who was involved in the mind control and remote viewing program, Dr. Hal Puthoff, who ran the SRI program for 25 years for the CIA.

One of his formulas he’s gotten out of the mind aspect, the remote viewing. He’s gotten into the UFO thing, into zero-point energy. One of the formulas that Stan Ramanek writes is one of the formulas that had only been published one time in the world and it was a formula by Hal Puthoff on zero-point energy, and this abductee gets it.

So you get these not just ordinary messages. You’re getting these things as if the aliens are putting this in here and actually taking us along a path and giving us stuff that we would have not have gotten on our own. They are leading us so that—they’re covering it up but they’re gradually releasing it. Now I’ll say the disclosure, when we finally find out what’s going on with UFOs, is when the aliens tell us.

Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, and boy, there’s just so much there to pull apart. I just can’t leave that without touching on one point that I think you make and that’s that to understand the government deception and the government cover-up, one of the things you bring to the table is to say it doesn’t have to be masterminded if you just look at it from the national security lens. You can have a lot of people that can just be set off to do a task that’s purely national security and it can wind up looking very nefarious from a high level when in fact they’re just hey, we have to make sure that we’re on top of this kind of thing.

Let me leave that for a minute because there’s a lot to pull apart there. What I really want to do is circle back around now and talk about some of the things that you’re talking about from these other glimpses we’re getting of expanded human consciousness and see how they might fit together. Then I think we can’t even really talk about the aliens versus us and this time versus that time. I think all those things start to get a little bit fuzzy.

The person I bring into this discussion I mentioned earlier is Joe McMoneagle, who we had a chance to interview a few months ago, and of course is Psychic Spy #001. One of the anecdotes he told that I thought was just fascinating is he sits down with Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute and as you just said, Hal has been hired by the CIA to figure out this remote secret spy thing and how we can spy on the Russians using psychics.

He looks over at his file that they unsealed, that is totally Secret, no one can get into it, and there is a copy of Raymond Moody’s Life After Life book. The reason why this is relevant is because Joe McMoneagle has had a very profound near-death experience while he’s an Intelligence officer for the United States in Germany. In this near-death experience he leaves his body and is having an out-of-body experience and then goes to Heaven and encounters this being that for any other way we’d talk about it is God and makes this connection at this level of consciousness that is clearly way above our level of consciousness and gets this mental download.

Again, you’re talking about the Rendlesham Forest case. You look at near-death experiencers or many other spiritually-transformative experiences that have been reported throughout time, whether they’re Kundalini or Christian experiences. Often there’s this download of information that just gets put into the brain and sometimes they can’t even repeat it when they get back. But there is this higher order of consciousness. So don’t we have to start trying to make that connection too, and try and see how the whole thing fits together?

Grant Cameron: Yes, but it’s still a big package of unknowns. I mean, you sort of get the connection that you can get these downloads, that consciousness is an extremely integral part that may be the whole thing. That consciousness is like the Eastern philosophies.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Maybe fundamental.

Grant Cameron: That consciousness is the basis of the whole thing. In the Western world, and I have some problems with science. I always say science is not there to solve a problem for us because science is basically, if you take a look, John Alexander who’s a high-level military guy who’s gotten into the mind and into UFOs and stuff, he always mentions the fact that in the National Academy of Sciences, the higher the level you get of science, the more they disbelieve any sort of phenomenology, whether it be UFOs or mental phenomena or remote viewing or stuff like that.

At the National Academy of Sciences level only 4% of the people believe in phenomenology. They have nothing to do with it. So basically you have like Atheists. Phenomenology Atheists. The UFO community always wants scientists to run the program and I say, “No. Keep them out of it because they’re tainted by sort of a Christian religion where everything is material. That you have a God with a beard and we’re going to go to Heaven with streets paved of gold. I think you have to move away from that into sort of an Eastern philosophy thing.”

But as I say, I’m one, you might have Colin Anders, you have Steven Greer, you have maybe a dozen people in the UFO community who believe strongly that that consciousness is a basic core of this phenomenon. The rest of them would say this is absolutely nonsense. This is crazy. This is nuts-and-bolts. Don’t talk to me about this consciousness stuff. It’s nuts. It’s not well-received in the UFO community.

It’s a very new aspect and I’m saying to the UFO community now we’d better start taking a look seriously at this, as nutty as it might have appeared in the 1950s. This is what’s going to give us the answer to what is going on here. If you start looking at the nature of consciousness, the nature of the universe. Is it really a material universe? How does it work? This entanglement property, all these advanced physics ideas. But we are very, very far away. I don’t think we really understand very much of it.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Of course we don’t. But, Grant, it’s interesting what you say because when you take even a small step back from the UFO phenomena as we’ve talked about here, it becomes obvious that consciousness and this extended human consciousness or alien consciousness is central to it. It’s funny that there’s this controversy within your community about a phenomena that jumps right out at you from all the different angles that we’ve talked about.

I’ll tell you, from my perspective, and we’ve been at the extended human consciousness work of others through this show for a number of years, the next step is the spiritual aspect. The parapsychologists, let’s say, the parapsychology and the psi community that we’ve talked to a lot here, if I could roll in also the near-death experience science community or the out-of-body experience science community. All those have a similar blind spot in that they want to look at consciousness and extended human consciousness but they always have this kind of soft spot for scientific materialism.

They wind up saying some of the same things that you have in that we haven’t understood it or don’t understand it completely and all the rest of that. I really have been pushing things in another direction and that’s that all the reports of this extended consciousness we talk about very quickly get to this spiritual connection. I’m not talking about it from my personal spirituality. I’m just talking about it as a core part of the phenomena; a core part of the experience.

Joe McMoneagle, who is deep, deep in this stuff, he doesn’t talk about his near-death experience as being just a mental experience. He talks about it being a spiritual union with a consciousness that is of a higher order and from his perception, is of a much, much, much higher order. That may be offensive or upset people who are strong Atheists and as you point out, which is really more of an anti-Christian thing, but I’m not talking about anyone’s personal spiritual beliefs or personal religious beliefs.

I’m just saying the spiritual aspect is clearly a core part of this phenomena and I just wonder if anyone in the UFO research community has gotten there. I think John Mack was kind of headed there but John Mack, of course, a Harvard psychologist who got interested in the abduction phenomena and did a lot of research in talking to abductees and came to the conclusion that it was psycho-spiritual. So where has that whole line of research gone within the UFO community?

Grant Cameron: Boy, absolutely there’s a division there but what I always point out is it comes down to the male and female thing. I know you’ve been to UFO conferences but if you go to UFO conferences you’ll see a real separation between men and women. Men are into the hardware, they’re into the technology. How does this thing fly? Where’s it from? And if you take a look at women, they are into the spiritual aspects of the thing.

We’ve got to take a look at what the women are doing and what the men are doing and that it is a unity of the two. But right now it’s still a separation. You have the men who are into the hardware and you have the women who are into the spiritual, the experiences of people. They will go a lot farther in looking at the abduction experience as being almost a spiritual experience.

But if you talk to men you’ll talk to Robert Collins and his abduction experiences. They’re evil. They’re here; we have to try to fight them off. So you have the men who are basically saying it’s an evil type thing, a national security thing. We’ve got to fight it. And the women are at a higher level. There is a real division inside the UFO community.

The reality, I think, is going to fall where you describe it that it’s going to be more of a spiritual experience. We’re sort of influenced by the government that everybody’s an enemy and it all comes down to us versus them. So we see all the aliens, we see all the latest UFO movies it’s always the great Americans bringing freedom and democracy to the world, fighting off these evil aliens who are trying to take over the world. Whereas that’s not what I think it is.

If the aliens wanted to take over and destroy us they could have done it 100 years ago. Why would they wait? It’s not. It’s more of a spiritual development of the Earth at their pace as they unfold this thing for us. The women have already caught on to how this works.

Alex Tsakiris: One last area I’d like to get into, and it’s been great talking. I appreciate all the time you’ve spent on this. You obviously have not only a passion for this but you’ve matched it with a deep, deep knowledge. I really respect and admire the way that you’ve gone about researching this and filling this unexplainable void that we have out there in terms of why an independent researcher like you has to be filing hundreds of FOA requests and gathering and publishing this data while we have this huge apparatus in the media that is just completely blind to it. Let me get off of that pedestal.

I want to talk about the psychedelic connection because another guest we’ve had on this show is Dr. Rick Strassman, who was at the University of New Mexico. As far as I know he’s the only researcher who was given permission to study the effects of DMT on subjects. So he gathered up a bunch of students there at New Mexico and gave them rather high doses of DMT. They saw not only aliens but fairies and other independent entities that seemed to operate in this other realm.

And of course this work with psychedelics is mirrored by many other researchers. Anyone can go and Google “Terence McKenna” and you can get all sorts of interesting ideas about the connection here. What are your thoughts on what the psychedelic community and the psychedelic research and what we’ve found out? What’s your thoughts on how that might connect to all this?

Grant Cameron: I don’t really know. I have really not thought about it except as you’re describing it, it’s sort of like this small percentage of reality that we really understand. When you get into these different states of mind that everything sort of changes. I really don’t have much of an opinion except that it just shows how limited our knowledge of reality is. We really are just starting out. You’re probably going to need another 30 years of experiments and somebody getting an insight on a new experiment that will nail down what’s actually going on there.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. What I think a lot of folks don’t realize is that the materialism in science mirrors the materialism in our culture. So our materialistic society and how we’re materialists and how George Bush says, “Don’t worry about the Iraq war, just go shopping,” the connection is real. It’s not some abstract connection; it’s real. It’s only in a world that you construct where it’s just about matter; it’s about goods; it’s about survival, that you’re able to rationally do these things. To gather things and then go bomb other people.

If you have this expanded view that says we’re all somehow connected, and we don’t have to understand what that means, but we’re all connected, our idea of time is not what we think it is, as soon as those things break down you can’t run a nation-state. You certainly can’t go bomb other people and do all the other crazy stuff. You can’t deny basic water and health and the things that we do to all these people so we can—you just can’t run the game.

And I’m not saying that’s necessarily good or bad because hell, I have too many advantages to say that. I banged my head against that when I first got into this. It was like, gosh, darn it, why aren’t these scientists looking into this? If only they knew! It’s like hey, the whole process, the whole system is orchestrated so that anyone who has that awareness is kicked out from the beginning. You can’t have those yahoos running it and saying the Emperor has no clothes.

You’re coming at it from a whole different perspective and saying, “Hey, the UFOs are running the show.” I come at it from another perspective and say, “Hey, as a nonreligious person, as a non-Christian, God is in control. God is clearly in control.” When these near-death experiencers die, they tell you they see God. You just can’t get past that.

And it’s funny because I’ve talked to a bunch of near-death experience researchers. I just had a great interview with a guy who I think is one of the real champions of that, Melvin Morrison. We had this discussion and he came to the same thing. He said, “You’re right. I have to play around with that concept because imagine this.” He’s an outsider. He’s a near-death experience researcher. He’s a physician, pediatrician. Teaches at a hospital. But he’s still an outsider, right? He’s ostracized because he researches NDE stuff.

But even within the NDE community he’s an outsider if he goes and says, “Well, yeah, they do talk about God and we have to figure out what that would mean.” That higher-higher-higher-higher-higher-higher consciousness that we would then call God. We have to factor that into the equation. We can’t just waffle it and say, “Well, yeah, maybe we’re all connected in some way.” You know, that’s not what the best evidence is telling us. The best evidence is telling us that there’s something pretty close to what we’ve always been told is God.

And with all these different religions and wisdom traditions and Native Americans and Aborigines have always pointed to and said, “There’s like a real, real high guy up there and that’s God and that’s more than all this other stuff.” So that’s where I’m coming at it from. That’s just a hard thing to get over, given the way we’ve orchestrated the whole deal that we have to work inside of our materialistic world.

Grant Cameron: Yeah. You’ve just got to transfer that sort of God thing to find a way to make a buck out of it and then people would accept it. Or take the threat out. I’ve mentioned numerous times in the UFO community if you take a look at the interaction between abductees and the aliens, it is actually direct ESP. Direct mind-to-mind interaction. The ESP experiments that have been run by humans have all this noise-to-signal ratio that’s bad at the best of times. Here it’s like there’s absolute no noise whatsoever. There are just interactions.

So if you look at that, that’s a major threat to say, governments. If you can read somebody’s mind, what do you if you’re a politician now running for the 2012 election. You stand up to make a speech and everybody knows exactly what you’re thinking? There is no scam anymore. That, to me, to an establishment is something like let’s keep this out of here. This is not something we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. But if I can make one more point and drill into this, I’d be interested to get your opinion on this. And that’s that I just can’t stress this enough so I’m going to stress it one more time. I’m not coming at this from a religious perspective. I don’t have any agenda to push in terms of any religion or even any kind of spirituality. I just come at it from looking at the facts. And the facts are the abductees don’t talk about the aliens as being God. They see this level of consciousness that is greater than them but they don’t see it as God.

And God here is just a placeholder. People are going to freak out. They do all the time whenever you say God. But a placeholder for a very, very high consciousness. And the people who have the Kundalini experience, who have the spontaneous prayer experience, who have the near-death experience in particular, they do talk about “God.”

I don’t see too many people really making that differentiation. They just go in and say, “Oh, yeah, well, the abductees had this ESP experience or this out-of-body experience so it’s like the aliens are God.” Well, you know what? I don’t know if that’s true or not but the data that we do have suggests that it’s something very different and that people know when they’re encountering something like God. They can differentiate when they’re encountering something like an alien consciousness.

Grant Cameron: It’s at a lower level. It’s like a lower frequency or whatever. It’s the same sort of experience. Like consciousness would explain everything from God all the way down to the most basic material things. It’s all still consciousness. It’s sort of different vibrations at different levels and so your ESP that’s happening at the alien level is at a higher level than what we have talking to each other on the Earth. I started out and that was my experience.

Before UFOs I was at the university and my major was religion and I did the near-death experience thing. I talked to the different chaplains and asked all the weird questions of the various chaplains like, “Were there any miracles? Did anybody ever predict their death? Did they tell you exactly when they were going to die?” I had all these weird things that surrounded death. There definitely was a religious aspect to the thing that’s different than the UFO interaction between aliens.

I went to chaplains rather than ministers because with chaplains there’s no garbage there. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people all the time. They’re not there trying to recruit you to the Roman Catholic religion or the Lutheran religion or whatever. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people and that’s who I wanted to talk to. It’s like when you come to death there’s no more crap. Everybody’s telling the truth; everybody’s basically telling you the way it is.

And Atheists. I had numerous ones where, “Did you ever have an Atheist? Did they ever come back with a near-death experience?” It still came down to this higher God-thing, which as you say, it’s different than the alien thing. But we’re just looking at different levels of this consciousness thing, that it’s all consciousness.

But in the UFO community, people do not understand that. They’re still at this basic level of nuts-and-bolts, us versus them, military aspects. There is a difference but it’s still consciousness. It’s whatever level you’re at that is explaining the same thing. Once you understand consciousness you can put them into different levels and explain what’s going on. But we’re so much in the material world that consciousness really hasn’t been researched very much by anybody. That’s the basic problem we have.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Hey Grant, tell us what’s going on, what’s coming up for you in terms of books, appearances, anything like that.

Grant Cameron: I’m re-doing this book that we did in 1990 that basically tells the story about Wilbert Smith and going to the States and Dr. Eric Walker and we go into Area 51, the updated story of Area 51 that gives the reality. That’s being republished. Richard Dolan is going to republish that within the next three to four months.

Basically I’m giving the consciousness lecture. I think this is, as I said, one of three top periods in my life. The one was when I had the UFO sighting; one when I saw Dr. Michael Newton speak about Life Between Lives, and the third was when I had this consciousness thing last year at Phoenix. I’m giving this consciousness lecture first in England in the beginning of August. Then in Philadelphia. At the end of September I’m giving the consciousness lecture at the UFO Conference next February in Phoenix, Arizona. Then I’ll be giving it in Orlando in May.

So it’ll be the same lecture and as it will be a more developed lecture as I go along. But this is the lecture I’m giving now. I’m saying it’s the most important thing the UFO community now has to learn. This is a critical thing. If you want to understand what’s going on and understand the fact that the government has always known this, you’d better start looking at this aspect of consciousness because we have entirely missed the boat. We are floundering around, still looking at sightings and tracking sightings and stuff.

I think we have missed one of the key aspects of the whole phenomenon which gives us a lot of the answers as to what’s going on with UFOs. And that is the consciousness thing. It’s a consciousness lecture and Colin Andrews is going to follow me in London. He’s giving the consciousness lecture. He knows mine; we’re exchanging information on consciousness. He’s going to give the one on the crop circles again about consciousness and crop circles.

I think you’ll see it slowly move into the UFO community. It will be fought by a lot of people but this is, as I said, this is something the UFO community has missed and I’m going to start talking about it. To me it was a revelation. I was missing it, as well.

Alex Tsakiris: Great. So for more information, www.presidentialufo.com.

Grant Cameron: I appreciate your time and your interest. It’s strange to see somebody else outside of the UFO community take this interest and I’m glad you did. I hope that our two communities have more interactions because I think we have something to offer each other that will help each of us understand what the other side is doing and help us understand the answers we need in our field.

Alex Tsakiris: I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s this never-ending process of opening yourself up to more and more of what’s out there. It’s always a little uncomfortable. I’m sure some listeners to this show are a little uncomfortable, tip-toeing into the UFO field. But gosh darn it, you just have to follow the stuff wherever it leads. That’s really our charter, isn’t it? We just have to go where it takes us.

Grant Cameron: You got it.

Alex Tsakiris: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. I just am delighted with the way this came out and I hope people enjoy it.

Grant Cameron: Beautiful. Thanks, Alex.

In the late 1970's, having begun my odyssey of looking for answers to the UFO Phenomenon as a result of actually seeing one up close in daylight, I traveled from my remote mountain top to a conference in the Brazilian Capitol of Brasilia. Ufologists from all over the world were reporting on their data and venturing ideas---mostly that advanced humanoids had succeeded in "arriving." It seemed too simplistic. I was not convinced, and early one morning when I thought I was the only person in the dining room, in came Allen Hynek and we began to talk. Over orange juice he asked me a lot of questions, including: "Where do you think they come from?" I hesitated because at that time my conclusions and ideas were not easily accepted. "I think they come from another dimension," I said and waited. "That's interesting," he answered, "I agree, but I can't say anything now because the public isn't ready for that idea yet," and added, "I just hope I know the answer before I die." Of course, he didn't know the answer before he died and we still don't.

But now we seem a bit closer to the idea of dimensions as a viable explanation for the UFO and other phenomena. And for me, finally the sheer volume of my own experiences not only with UFOs but other Anomalous Phenomena and what I was hearing from others (plus the literature) seemed to make various conclusions inevitable: We must realize that our "consensus reality" is discontinuous, and take a look at how we perceive Anomalous Phenomena.

Saying that our "consensus reality" is discontinuous usually confuses people; hard to imagine. Then as I illustrate the idea and I cite a few well-known examples, i.e. of what we call "off-world" creatures, like the Chupa-Cabra, or the experience of the 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry Kary Mullis who had the courage to detail his meeting with what must have been an animal not from our reality, (page 131, of DANCING NAKED IN THE MIND FIELD), or how people report being awake in two places at once, I begin to see changes. With their eyes in the position of recovering the memory of an actual event, out pops a strange account. I've also had the experience of an odd animal, an "off-worlder", darting in and out of my reality and without any effort, by accident, encountered four other people (at different times and places) who saw the same peculiarly colored, wide-striped, needle-toothed creature.

And others, besides myself, that describe these chunks of other realities, what I call "blips" and "blobs," that appear for a few seconds. And there are the entities. The list is endless because we seem to be walking around in a dimensional soup. This conversation is fine when you're talking to someone either on the same wave-length or who has had an experience with Anomalous Phenomena themselves. But what about those who have never had any experiences at all? If we are all walking around in a Dimensional Soup why can't everyone see the same thing?

For years, on an informal level, "Ufologists" or people talking about sightings, have noted that it is very common that once a person has seen an UFO, or even experienced any one of a wide range of phenomena, their chances of further experiences outside "Consensus Reality" shoots up. So what's the mechanism? The structure of perceiving Anomalous Phenomena has not been well looked at. Given witnesses experiencing the same input, there are several factors that account for variance of perception in any group of people. (Discounting the Roshamon effect of course.) Why can you have ten people and only seven see an UFO that even a camera captures? It depends on the intensity of the input plus, the individual threshold of each witness. The intensity of the input any Psych 101 student understands. It’s that individual threshold that is tricky. There's been recent research on what happens in the brain when a person encounters input of "High-Strangeness." Apparently the amygdala blocks the conscious registering of input of high-strangeness, depending on the individual´s threshold. That means the person perceives the input but it does not register consciously. But it is not totally lost. From my experience with documenting accounts of input of high strangeness and how they seem to surface, I've come to the conclusion that we have what I call Memory Limbo. That is, perceptions of input of high-strangeness that are blocked by the amygdala and not registered consciously go into Memory Limbo but can be recovered.

I want to use an example of someone I have known well for many years, an experiencer of many types of phenomena to illustrate what I mean. My friend Genaro is around fifty, married with a teenaged daughter. They were living in Petropolis, a larger city some 60 miles from my village when there was a real Chupa-Cabra flap which was reported in the local newspapers. At the same time Genaro, with his wife and daughter saw an UFO flying around low in the sky. This was not reported to anyone but me and I was documenting the whole sequence. Genaro was interested in knowing just what I thought about it all and when I said that I´d reached the conclusion that it had to do with dimensions because of the way these phenomena acted he agreed. But when he wanted to know why I´d reached that conclusion I said that from my own experiences I had realized that consensus reality was discontinuous..why? Because when one saw chunks of matter completely out of context floating around it then seemed obvious. Genaro began to make eye scanning movements up and to the left (his left, my right) which signifies (in right-handed people) a stimulation of the right hemisphere in order to access a visual memory. "I've never told anyone this before," he said, and proceeded to recount several more strange incidents with input not from our world. Together with his younger sister he'd seen an off-world black, furry, dog-like creature with red-glowing eyes between two houses on several occasions. It seemed menacing. Then, what to me was even more indicative of more a complicated dimensional system was a further account of seeing a waterfall of points of light, not large, just about 15" high by 10" wide. It's always the same (in Portuguese or English), the eye scanning movements and then saying that they had never said anything about this before or, they weren't going to mention this...but, and up comes something that's surfaced from memory limbo.

There seems to be a huge spectrum of phenomena with a wide range of variables. The UFO is just the most obvious and well-known. The Chupacabra and Yeti or Big Foot the most well-documented off-worlder, but beyond that there are other even more weird creatures and a lot of other phenomena that people "forget." Apparently most of us see a lot of things we don't talk about and/or consciously register. One reason being that the stimuli are often hard to describe verbally. (This is besides the inherent fear of being judged a nut case.) The Phenomena don't conform to what our idea of what is: They can appear and disappear in a disconcerting manner, they are often not as solid, not as tangible, as we are used to, can be out of context, i.e., a "blob," a chunk like a volley ball-sized crumpled brown paper bag floating around the ceiling , or a little 15" X 10" "waterfall" of semi-luminous yellowish strands seen on the curb bordering grass while driving along going to lunch in the city. Or even something bigger..like the end of a cigar-shaped silvery blimp-like ship, with rows of windows, going into the embankment beside the road. This in daylight. (Later, I found an exact drawing of what I'd seen in Wm Bramley's GODS OF EDEN. Trouble is that this drawing was done in 1479 and published in 1557! And it's a drawing of a "comet" seen in Arabia.)

And while we're on the subject of objects seeming to penetrate a solid, I have three cases of multiple witnesses seeing an UFO dive into monoliths of solid granite. People also report Shadow Beings that flit quickly across one's visual field, short irridescent strands and luminous sea-urchin-like forms appear, meander a few seconds then disappear. Much can be written about each phenomenon (and I've only listed a few.) I've mainly talked about phenomena I´ve experienced myself, documented in others and subsequently read about in the literature. My point though, is to raise awareness to the fact that our consensus reality is a limited view of a greater, expanded reality that holds far more than we at the moment understand. Given the diversity of Anomalous Phenomena there are probably many dimensional systems jumbled up with our own. In the past, when we were more at risk of being eaten by predators, we had to concentrate more on evading the jaws of a hungry lion than contemplating appearances of strange input. Studying these phenomena and understanding their implications in terms of science, is a journey into unknown worlds. It is our future.

A few notes and references:

1'. While the "blips" & "blobs" don´t usually interact with us, I found a reference from the Monroe Institute that is certainly startling. A woman actually picked up a piece of a "Dimensinal Blob." Her dog began sniffing and barking at it and she did not want him to eat it so she picked it up. It was about the size of a half-dollar and looked like green cellophane. When she picked it up she got a shock and started to toss it in the direction of the fireplace and there was a noise, then her fingers went numb and the thing disappeared.

2. Because of having the experience of seeing through a circular opening in my visual field into another reality and then discovering others that had had that same experience, I would recommend taking a look at Scott Rogo´s MIND BEYOND THE BODY. The article by the mathematician A.J. H. Whiteman is a very articulate account, and especially , on page 277, the entry entitled, "C. Intiation from a State of "opening." "

3. In Jerome Clark & Loren Coleman's classic CREATURES OF THE GOBLIN WORLD are to be found many accounts not only of off-world creatures but also how they are sometimes linked to UFO sightings. The researchers in the Varginha case here in Brazil did not want to talk about the strange bi-pedal "Wolfman" that attacked several people in the same time-frame as the appearance of the famous "ET" that most people know about.

4. Recently I saw the NASA video of very odd organic forms circulating around a huge (3km X 12km ) tether floating out from a space probe. And also the FLIR video from Mexico. These were not visible to the naked eye but were taken with cameras that picked up things we can't see. Then, looking back into Ivan T. Sanderson's UNINVITED VISITORS, he seems to anticipate the idea of Dimensional Soup when he talks about the photographs of the author Trevor James in his book THEY LIVE IN THE SKY. Sanderson says: "It contains a large number of photographs of things in the sky, ranging in form from opaque spheres to vast diaphanous monstrosities, which the author claims he photographed in our western deserts with a special camera he built." And Sanderson continues, "...for it can only mean that our atmosphere is literally crowded with (to us) invisible objects, ranging in size from a cookie to a county." (Pages 73 & 74) Editors Note: Alberto Francisco do Carmo of Brasilia, Brazil, has informed me of Cynthia Luce’s recent passing. Though written some six years ago, I wanted to re-post this submission that she had shared with us earlier so that her thought-provoking article will remain available to others in the UFO field.

Cynthia worked with American journalist Bob Pratt (author of UFO DANGER ZONE) on several of his trips to Brazil. Born an American herself, Cynthia posssessed a Masters Degree in Experimental Psychology and Anthropology. She moved to Brazil in 1975 and lived in the mountain village of Sao Jose do Vale do Rio Preto, northwest of Rio de Janeiro, until just a few years ago.